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> Mini Lathe, Which to choose?
SKarmytech
Posted: June 27, 2010 03:14 pm
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I've been wanting to buy a mini lathe for small jobs at my workshop but i'm quite confused which one to choose. I want something that will have a good lifespan, not something that will break down just after some time. I've found a very good quality lathe online called Proxxon PD 230/E, here's the link for a store in my country that sell these for you to see, they cost 736,00 + IVA(tax). Then i also saw a Einhell lathe in an other local store for about 636. But the problem is, this Einhell lathe, despite being from a german brand and the size being quite reasonable (even by being called -mini-), it's made in China, and i've heard some people online stating that they had to re-build their lathe gearbox because the gears cracked, and because of this and that, and people stating to stay away as far as possible from these products. And then i thought "Ok then, better get the Proxxon lathe, since it's way better quality". So i went to YouTube to find something out about it and found this video, at the begginning i thought "Cool lathe" but after the guy puts his hand over it and i think "WT%? That's not a mini lathe, that's a nanomic lathe, i'm not gonna pay this much for this thing!" Just look at this brand wood lathe, this video, was this supposed to turn pencils or something? And you pay about 150 euros in my country for this thing!

BTW this is the Einhell lathe i'm talking about, it's not that small in size! They also have a newer model BT-ML 300, here.

If it was you, what would you choose, need your help!! blink.gif


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Fallingwater
Posted: June 27, 2010 03:32 pm
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Dunno if it's the same machine, but I've seen Einhell metal lathes on eBay for 400.

Edit: the first video is in Italian. He explicitly says that is the smallest lathe Proxxon make. I can translate more of it if you like, but I don't think you can even turn flashlights on that thing... way too tiny!
Apparently that guy uses it to modify yo-yos - and no, I'm not making this up.


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CWB
Posted: June 27, 2010 04:30 pm
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"modify yo-yos ..." laugh.gif laugh.gif
urge to comment is almost overpowering .

seriously though , it sort of depends on what you want to do on the lathe that determines the "size" and power requirements (etc) .
you certainly wouldn't want an old lathe out of a shipyard when most of your work requires nothing "bigger" than a jewelers lathe .
... not that owning an old shipyard lathe would be a bad thing , i'd like to have one ...


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VenomBallistics
Posted: June 27, 2010 05:24 pm
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stay the hell away from that lathe yes this one
its a senselessly dangerous tool that has more breakdowns than a drama queen convention and its lay out invites you killing yourself with it. on a scale of 1 to 10 I give it a solid negative 33.3 ... its unfit to be a turn table

So you need a lathe but your one a budget....
some of the China lathes are decent machines (I hate to admit that) but that aint one of them.
here are a few from a US importer of them ... they are all yangzou super machines rebranded (Im sure I spelled it wrong) but you will find similar from others
lathe1
lathe 2
this one is on its 5th year of service with me only fault Ive really found is that if you have cats ... keep em away from that lead screw wink.gif
combo
this just might be worth the extra shop real-estate
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SKarmytech
Posted: June 27, 2010 05:30 pm
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Well i am able to sorta understand what he says since both Italian and Portuguese come from Latin.

seems like i'll have to wait quite a long time until i'm able to buy a good lathe. well since a good quality unit with a good size is always above 1000! i'm doomed.


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VenomBallistics
Posted: June 27, 2010 06:18 pm
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lathe3
this is another common china lathe, I cant vouch for it other than it lacks the weaknesses of the mini lathes and their ilk.
at the time I was in the market for one, I test drove a mini lathe and decided more machine might be a good idea and overlooked this one for all the hairloss from the mini ... I wanted a few degrees of separation.

I will gladly give my minilathe gripe list since its price tag is so inviting others might fall for it.

1 variable speed motor control
This sounds like a great idea on paper, but its lost in execution. Speed settings are a suggestion. as it heats up it will suddenly gain speed and ruin an otherwise good pass.
Dont try even mild steel, the speed controller will not only go into yeehaw mode as above ... it'll provide magic smoke. Ive burned up 3 controller boards in one week.

2 Drive system
on the motor output we have a cog which in turn drives a belt, which in turn drives the spindle. Common belt drive arrangement but that motor cog is plastic and is prone to self destruction without warning.

3 Gear train
Its made of ... and im not kidding, ALL injection molded plastic. this kinda works. the reverse gears are prone to destruction while the thread and feed gears actually hold up ok.

4 thread feeds
it has em but see above. Your first pass or three will be dead on the nuts. thereafter as tool depth into the work causes a rise in cutting area and resistance they are going to flex LONG before you can call them finished threads.
despite many attempts, Ive never succeeded at cutting a screw on one.

5 Auto release chuck.
After a while the chucks tend to gain this feature. add yeehaw mode to this feature and get ready to duck.

6 Death trap size
It's size does not lend well to a safe working environment on the average bench.
It forces you to have a tendency to lean over the machine. you can figure out the rest. I suppose you could make shop preparations to accommodate this issue, however similar effort would be better spent on a better machine given the list of issues.

closing remarks
All of the issues could be overcome through modification and upgrades.
motor and speed control could be replaced with a better single speed motor and belt drive assembly. Feed gears could be replaced with steel. and the chuck could also be replaced with a slightly larger and more robust version.... it would then be a fine machine .... for the final price of an 11X26"
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Hamlet
Posted: June 27, 2010 06:26 pm
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http://www.grizzly.com/products/Combo-Lathe-Mill/G9729

Oh man, that combo looks nice. The price translates to roughly 24k in my currency, equivalent to a decent motorcycle. Wonder if they ship to Europe, and if so, what the shipping will cost. Prolly cheaper to seek the markets here.
And that yo-yo thing... wow! Now that is a good add to the tech-geek-joke arsenal thumbsup.gif


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tekwiz
Posted: June 27, 2010 06:37 pm
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I have the King 12" lathe. Yes, it's made in China, but it handles & works just like the big lathes. It will take carbide tooling & does nice accurate work. It has a 3/4hp motor, so it has a pretty decent metal removal rate.
I have a few thousand hours of lathe experience on the big machines & I like this one. The only thing I don't like about it is the variable speed operation, as this means low torque at slow speeds. These machines come with a full set of change gears for thread cutting & they do a good job on threads. The machine is light enough to be carried, & doesn't require bolting down.

user posted image

I would recommend this type of machine as a first lathe.
The machines to stay far away from are the mini lathes made of aluminum, as they are useless on anything other than plastic or wood. Try cutting metal on one of those & it'll be ruined within minutes.


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SKarmytech
Posted: June 28, 2010 06:54 pm
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@tekwiz

Is this lathe any good?

Or is still just some nasty lathe? I'm trying to find something i can order from Europe since ordering from another country outside the EU is a total mess to get what i want at time and at the price i was supposed to pay!

Oh btw, too much above 700 euros is too much for my student budget tongue.gif


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tekwiz
Posted: June 28, 2010 07:03 pm
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QUOTE (SKarmytech @ June 28, 2010 09:54 am)
@tekwiz

Is this lathe any good?

That lathe is virtually identical to the one I have. It will work just like the big boys.

The only real complaint that I have found about those machines is the 3/4" bore through the headstock spindle. This means that you cannot put anything bigger than that right through the headstock. Putting something right through the headstock is very handy when you need to machine the end of a long shaft, or wish to make a bunch of things from the same bar of stock.
A bigger hole would have been better.

The machine is well worth the price.
I don't know what the conversion factor is, but I paid $1000CDN for my machine, 3 years ago.


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Trouble rather the tiger in his lair, than the sage among his books.
For to you, kings & armies are things mighty & enduring.
To him, mere toys of the moment, to be overturned at the flick of a finger.

Fortuna favet fortibus.
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SKarmytech
Posted: June 28, 2010 07:06 pm
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It was a little more expensive, the convertion is here.

Little less then 100E more expensive or so rolleyes.gif


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tekwiz
Posted: June 28, 2010 07:12 pm
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In that case, that price is good. However, watch out for shipping costs, as these machines are quite heavy..more than 30kg. It's best if you can buy the machine locally, so you can pick it up & save on shipping.

Those machines are definately worth the price, IMO.


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Trouble rather the tiger in his lair, than the sage among his books.
For to you, kings & armies are things mighty & enduring.
To him, mere toys of the moment, to be overturned at the flick of a finger.

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SKarmytech
Posted: June 28, 2010 07:13 pm
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YARNN! I know, but the problem is there aren't so many shops here that sell this stuff this-good-at-this-price, then again the shipping still ruins it all sad.gif


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SKarmytech
Posted: June 30, 2010 10:00 pm
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BTW tek, isn't 300mm between points still considered "nano"?


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Hamlet
Posted: July 01, 2010 09:53 am
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QUOTE
YARNN! I know, but the problem is there aren't so many shops here that sell this stuff this-good-at-this-price


Don't be too sure on that. Ask from people that know. Some years ago, I did not know that there are two shops dedicated to ball bearings in my town. But then I asked the right people and there ya go.


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tekwiz
Posted: July 01, 2010 07:38 pm
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QUOTE (SKarmytech @ June 30, 2010 01:00 pm)
BTW tek, isn't 300mm between points still considered "nano"?

Nope. That's a common size for mini hobbiest lathes. It represents pretty well the minimum practical size. There are some smaller units made, but they aren't good for much except making miniature fittings & things.
The regular lathes start at 600mm between centers, with 900mm being perhaps the most common.

BTW: This style of lathe is called an "engine lathe", & is the most universal type. There are other specialized lathe types made for mass production, where you only have to do a single or couple of operations to a workpiece, but have to do it to many thousands of them.

Oh yeah: If you do get that lathe, order a live center for the tailstock at the same time. This is a center that is on bearings, so it can spin freely with the workpiece. The solid centers that come with the machine don't last long if you have to use them to support a spinning workpiece, especially at high speeds.


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For to you, kings & armies are things mighty & enduring.
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ChipUser
Posted: July 04, 2010 12:45 am
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I have been thinking of buying a mini lathe for a while. I found this page quite helpful in getting the general idea of the market place:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/

I am thinking of buying this one:

http://www.micromark.com/MICROLUX-7x14-MINI-LATHE,8176.html

Last month, I was in NJ & thought I will go take a look at it in person. I wrote to Micromark & found out that they are strictly mail order.

I may order it in a couple of months. I am about half done building a sturdy bench for the lathe & a couple other tools. Right now, at work, I am so busy, I don't think I will be able to have the bench ready until labor day.

Tekwiz,

what starter tools/add-ons should I get with this lathe? If you could take a look at their website & recommend specific items, that will be awesome. The last time I worked on a lathe was in my college days - loooog ago; so any pointers/comments are welcome. I have noted your reco. for the live center.

It seems they have introduced a slightly larger 7X16 model. Don't know if it is worth the extra 100 bucks.
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tekwiz
Posted: July 04, 2010 09:06 pm
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QUOTE (ChipUser @ July 03, 2010 03:45 pm)
I have been thinking of buying a mini lathe for a while. I found this page quite helpful in getting the general idea of the market place:

http://www.mini-lathe.com/

I am thinking of buying this one:

http://www.micromark.com/MICROLUX-7x14-MINI-LATHE,8176.html

Last month, I was in NJ & thought I will go take a look at it in person. I wrote to Micromark & found out that they are strictly mail order.

I may order it in a couple of months. I am about half done building a sturdy bench for the lathe & a couple other tools. Right now, at work, I am so busy, I don't think I will be able to have the bench ready until labor day.

Tekwiz,

what starter tools/add-ons should I get with this lathe? If you could take a look at their website & recommend specific items, that will be awesome. The last time I worked on a lathe was in my college days - loooog ago; so any pointers/comments are welcome. I have noted your reco. for the live center.

It seems they have introduced a slightly larger 7X16 model. Don't know if it is worth the extra 100 bucks.

That is a very similar machine to the one I have. First, the extra $100 for the longer machine is well worth it. There will always be times when that machine just isn't long enough. You must also consider that much of your bed length is taken up by the tailstock, chuck & drill bits when drilling & this is where the extra length is priceless.
The only thing I don't like about those machines is that they are underpowered...my 12" lathe has a 3/4hp motor & it isn't enough. I stall it out all the time.

Necessary accessories include the tailstock chuck, live center, 4 jaw independant chuck, diamond knurl, & a mag base dial indicator.
If you plan on machining long pieces, then the steady & follower rests are necessary. The steady rest clamps to the bed & will support long pieces that cannot accept a tailstock center, & the follower rest clamps to the carriage & supports long thin workpieces that would normally just bend away from the tool.
A couple of HSS tools would be a good idea, as these can be shop ground to whichever profile is needed, like for straight turning or threading. A cutoff tool is also very handy, & is used for grooving as well.

One accessory they don't show is an indexable carbide toolholder. These accept triangular carbide inserts that can be indexed through 6 fresh cutting edges. I use these for most straight turning, because they offer much greater speeds & metal removal rates than HSS & can be used on hardened material. I don't recommend the brazed carbide tools offered as accessories, as they are expensive & have limited lifespans because you need diamond wheels to sharpen them. They are also of a very poor grade of carbide.

After you get the machine, you can look around to see if you can find a small enough indexable carbide toolholder to fit...I made my own from a piece of 1/2" keystock to fit a box of inserts I already had.

The critical dimension for tools for the lathe is the distance from the toolholder bottom surface to the machine centerline...this distance must be matched by any tool you use in the machine, as it represents the distance between a tool's bottom & it's cutting point.


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To him, mere toys of the moment, to be overturned at the flick of a finger.

Fortuna favet fortibus.
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ChipUser
Posted: July 04, 2010 11:05 pm
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QUOTE
That is a very similar machine to the one I have. First, the extra $100 for the longer machine is well worth it. There will always be times when that machine just isn't long enough. You must also consider that much of your bed length is taken up by the tailstock, chuck & drill bits when drilling & this is where the extra length is priceless.


Good point! didn't think of that.

QUOTE
Necessary accessories include the tailstock chuck, live center, 4 jaw independant chuck, diamond knurl, & a mag base dial indicator. If you plan on machining long pieces, then the steady & follower rests are necessary. The steady rest clamps to the bed & will support long pieces that cannot accept a tailstock center, & the follower rest clamps to the carriage & supports long thin workpieces that would normally just bend away from the tool. A couple of HSS tools would be a good idea, as these can be shop ground to whichever profile is needed, like for straight turning or threading. A cutoff tool is also very handy, & is used for grooving as well.  One accessory they don't show is an indexable carbide toolholder. These accept triangular carbide inserts that can be indexed through 6 fresh cutting edges. I use these for most straight turning, because they offer much greater speeds & metal removal rates than HSS & can be used on hardened material.


I will keep these in mind while ordering. What kind of tools do you recommend for wood & plastics?

Thanks for the details.
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tekwiz
Posted: July 05, 2010 09:40 pm
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High speed tools are fine for everything, except rapid metal removel in steel or hardened steels.
I would just buy a few HSS tool blanks, then grind them to suit in your shop. For 99% of external work, 2 tools will be all you need...one for straight turning & one for threading.
Needless to say, a decent bench or belt grinder is essential.


BTW: If you plan to be cutting threads, you will also need a fishtail guage. This is an inexpensive tool, used to set up threading operations & as a grinding guide for toolbits. It's the one on the left in this pic:
user posted image


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Trouble rather the tiger in his lair, than the sage among his books.
For to you, kings & armies are things mighty & enduring.
To him, mere toys of the moment, to be overturned at the flick of a finger.

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SKarmytech
Posted: July 09, 2010 11:45 pm
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@tekwiz

You say you have a chinese lathe. Does it have plastic gears and so? Are all chinese lathes nasty? I already know that i need to stay away from mini lathes (chinese or not) but large ones are dammed expensive for my wallet. I was thinking about getting one from a german brand name Optimum, model OPTI D 240 x 500 G but 1.390,00 EUR even still excluding VAT and my country taxes, it's like i would find a hole in my wallet after buying one of these things. Are large chinese lathes worth?


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SKarmytech
Posted: July 10, 2010 07:15 pm
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tek i need yar help againah!

I've found this german brand (yeas again wink.gif ) called Quantum which is a little more cheapo brand of the Optimum brand. It has these two models i'm interested in:

first and second model

Quite a large lathe for the price paid. I've readen online that this lathe is designed in germany but built in china, will i have any problems for being both made in china and a cheapo brand of another brand? Like is it solid built, doesn't have plastic gears and such? Is it reliable and a good choice?

I want something that i wont regret spending my money on after some time because it is big enought for what i want.


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SKarmytech
Posted: July 10, 2010 07:28 pm
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Also i don't understand why such low price difference between these two (this and this one). You get more 150mm of tail right? Why so little difference in price? It's not even worth thinking two times! I would go instantly for the biggest one.
Or is it some sort of mistake by them?


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tekwiz
Posted: July 10, 2010 07:36 pm
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I'll bet those lathes are made in China, too. The specifications are virtually identical to most of the other brands of small lathes out there, almost all of which are made in China as well.
Like all of those small variable speed lathes, that one is under powered. However, it does have 1hp, which is pretty good for that size of machine.
They don't mention what the gears are made of, but the change gears are almost certainly plastic. The few gears that are involved with driving the spindle are likey steel. So are the ones in my Chinese lathe.
Change gears are only used for threading & for power feed. This is a relatively low demand application, & plastic gears can be expected to last decades, unless you are using the machine 8 hours a day, every day. The gears are under a cover, so they are protected from metal chips.
If you wish to avoid plastic gears, you will have to look for a better class of lathe, one that has a quick change gearbox for threading. The QCGB is explained here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lathe_(metal)
My last lathe was a 300X900 toolroom lathe, with fully geared spindle & quick change gearbox. It was also a Chinese machine & cost me ~$3500. I used that machine heavily for more than 4 years & I did not have a single complaint...a very nice machine. I don't baby my machines, either. I use them to their maximum capabilities.


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Trouble rather the tiger in his lair, than the sage among his books.
For to you, kings & armies are things mighty & enduring.
To him, mere toys of the moment, to be overturned at the flick of a finger.

Fortuna favet fortibus.
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SKarmytech
Posted: July 10, 2010 10:14 pm
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BTW tek those plastic gears aren't supposed to turn the face plate right? 'Cause if it was they wouldn't last decades right?

Also, which is the difference between points in your chinese lathe?


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